Vocation as Vacation - Aligning Work, Values, and Goals: Interview with Mary Beck White-Sutton of Duke's Fuqua School of Business
February 17, 2021
By Matt Miner, MBA, CFP®
Since Work Pants Finance’s Episode 1 is my interview with John Troy, it was 100% necessary that I get Duke University’s Fuqua School of Business legend Mary Beck White-Sutton published ASAP, as it’s a perfect companion episode to John’s Troy’s interview.
Mary Beck and I share a wide-ranging discussion about selecting a career, finding yourself in your 20s, disregarding detractors, getting joy and energy from our work, intellectual curiosity, business school as a career difference maker, walking appointments, growing up in a small town, the skill of narrowing down options and the The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency series.
Three areas stand out
A circuitous path, especially early on, can work, which is good news for most of us! Mary Beck recounts her early career history starting work as a lifeguard, and stints as a legislative intern, working in women’s advocacy, and thinking about agriculture and conservation.
Informational interviewing is a potent tool to get to know yourself and others. In an informational interview (or informational meeting), you ask open ended questions and learn about and from the person with whom you’re meeting. The topic of informational interviews is so important that it’s the subject of next week’s show.
Make your vocation a vacation (Mark Twain). We spend a lot of our lives working. If we can sculpt our work so it doesn’t feel like work, that’s a good thing! I’ve spent my own life pursuing “work I would do if I could never retire” and helping you do the same thing is a big part of the Work Pants Finance raison d'etre. Nevertheless, there’s an important caveat: Even in the most desirable, best matched work there are still tasks that feel like drudgery and days when we feel “blah.” For further elucidation on this piece of the puzzle, see Genesis 3:19.
Resources, Reading, and a Movie
Getting Unstuck, by Timothy Butler
The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency (Book 1)
1917 Movie (2019)
TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Matt Miner: What if you could find work that didn't feel like work. That's the promised land of the world of work and the subject of today's show.
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Hey, welcome to the Work Pants Finance podcast. I'm so glad you're here. I'm Matt Miner, your money guide and Work Pants Finance is the show for MBAs, entrepreneurs, and other professionals who want their financial plan to work as hard as they do.
This is episode number 2 and the first episode I am rereleasing on the Work Pant Finance Podcast because it connects so well with episode 1, my interview with John Troy. Episode one told John Troy’s story, about what it took to launch and grow workmonger.com to the point where it serves his family well, and feels like he is working a more reasonable number of hours each week. recorded on March 10th, 2020 back before people stopped hugging each other.
My guest today is Mary Beck White-Sutton, sector director for consulting at Duke University's Fuqua School of Business career center. Though Mary Beck hails from a family of educators and she herself works at my favorite university, the wisdom she shares is all about people and business.
Be sure to stick around till the end of our conversation when Mary Beck and I discuss her upbringing in a small town in the South and the delicious and important role of livestock for children in rural Africa.
Now, here's your money guide quick tip. Informational interviewing is one of the most potent yet frequently overlooked tools for job seekers. Mary Beck and I wet your whistle as we touch briefly on this topic today. Be sure to tune in next Friday, February 26, when informational interviewing is the major subject of the show.
Today’s episode is called Vocation as Vacation – Aligning Work, Value and Goals: Interview with Mary Beck Sutton of Duke University’s Fuqua School of Business. You can read more at workpantsfinance.com/2
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Mary Beck, it's so good to have you here with me today on the Work Pants Finance podcast. I'm just delighted to be together with you,
[00:01:48] Mary Beck: Matt, I'm so happy to be here too. I wouldn't miss it for anything. Thank you so much for thinking of me for doing this.
[00:01:53] Matt: The thing that I'm probably most excited about in having you on, I guess, are two things. One is just, you're an amazingly fun person to talk to, and I know that that's going to come through in our conversation today. The other is that from your seat in your work, you have the opportunity to watch people over and over and over again, make these really interesting career choices. I'm going to let you talk about what you do rather than me try to say that for you.
I know that with the theme of this show being about learning from the experience of others, I can't imagine a better person to talk to about that than you. So that my listeners know who you are, I wonder if you could just give us the version of your story that you'd like to tell today?
[00:02:33] Mary: Well, I'd love to do it, Matt. I'm a person that grew up loving so many things. If I think about career, which is just an interest, a bound, I grew up in a small town in Georgia had parents, educators, lots of educators in the family. Education was quite important.
Intellectual curiosity was encouraged of our vacations many times for us traveling to south and other parts of the country to learn about that and learn about how the country was formed and things of this nature, but then it also provided many wonderful experiences for me in thinking about what I might want to do with my life and my career. One of the things I was quite interested in as a young age was understanding about the government and the processes.
Therefore, when I went to college, I was active in different groups on campus. I went to a large college and the south. Enjoyed that it had a real interest in hands-on work. I've always had an interest in jumping in to see what might be like. I decided, "Gosh, if I want to know how our government works, why not look at being an intern with a local legislature?" I commenced to looking into what that would be like.
I was able to land an internship with our state representative from Georgia in Atlanta, because that was, again, where I grew up in Georgia. It was fascinating following him around and going to committee meetings and understanding how things came together and laws were passed and even things that were even considered it's quite a complex process. With human beings involved a very important things on the table. One of the things too, I was a social worker, undergrad at the University of Georgia, and we were looking at being certified licensed.
I was surprised at that point in time, some years ago, that social workers weren't licensed. It's very important to be licensed so that I had the best time falling around lobbyists and learning about what that means-- I advocated for that. That was a fantastic thing, and of course later on, we were coming in licensure, and has been that way for many years. Nonetheless, I quite enjoyed that stance with my representative and again, a group through, with a family of you go for things that you're interested in.
I was, of course, the one that was interested in everything. Then I decided, "Gosh, if I'm interested in that, why don't I pursue working in DC? What would that be like?" After a bit of time, post graduates from Georgia and working in Atlanta a bit at a hospital, I went up to DC and did my typical thing, which is canvas the hill. This is back many years ago when it's a lot different process now and came home and told my parents said, "You know what? I know I can find a job up there," because I was fairly a high risk person from the standpoint calculating.
I was, "I know I can find a job up there." My parents were like, "Where are you working at?" "I don't have one yet, I just know I can find it." Anyway, I came home, regrouped, moved to DC, met these wonderful people and wound up working for a wonderful congressman from our state and was really fascinated about all that. In the middle of it all, I have all these other things I'm interested in on the side.
I'm very active outdoors and had a lot of outdoor activities and enjoy doing sports and things of this nature and grew up doing sports. It was looking at other things that I was interested in addition to how the government works and wound up, then, having an opportunity to go overseas and then come back and then kind of regroup to see what's next. I worked with these wonderful nonprofits. I had an opportunity to work for two national nonprofits in Washington.
One was more of an educational bit with women who are going back to school and scholarships that provided, and we provided them. The other was around agriculture, soil, and water conservation. Having grown up in a rural area of Georgia, a small town, but also having my grandfather and my father grew up on a farm and going there often. I really appreciated about agriculture and soil and conservation and things of this nature and have a lot of respect for the earth and nature and how to maintain that.
I worked with them as well. In the middle of it all, I went back to get a master's degree in basically what I wound up working. Yes, it was counseling and development, higher education and pivoted into career. The reason I chose career, Matt, and again, I like variety of work. There's so much out there that we can test and look at. I can't imagine people not thoroughly enjoying with what they spend so much of their life doing.
[00:06:52] Matt: Man, I think that's a neat story. You've been helping a large number of people every year maybe figure out what they'd like to do. Tell us exactly what you do right now?
[00:07:02] Mary: Matt, you know me, this is me just talking about things. What I do now for many years, 1996, I went into the higher-end field and worked in many different universities with undergraduates, doctoral students, alumni and then now have an opportunity to have the last almost now 19 years working with MBA students at the Fuqua School of Business at Duke University.
[00:07:24] Matt: At Duke University's Fuqua School of Business. Every current theme on this podcast and a favorite place of mine. As you help those students, those young men and women make these really important decisions coming out of business school, what are some things that you've seen that have worked? What's worked well and what hasn't worked so great for them as they make these career decisions?
[00:07:42] Mary: One of the things I found is if students really have time to reflect on what they want to do in life, and that's difficult, that's a massive question as you know, Matt. That changes because we evolve as human beings, where we are in our mid 20s, late 20s. We're still the same person as we age, but those interests and desires changed depending upon a lot of things.
[00:08:09] Matt: That's a huge part of why I made the career change that I did. It's to help other people think about just that question. Okay, go on.
[00:08:16] Mary: Absolutely. I've seen when students come in, as you remember, you write your essay, you write things, you write what you think you want to do. That frankly probably is a real good baseline of what you actually maybe eventually go into. Because I think when you go into business school, there's a lot of noise. There's a lot of discussion and exploration and excitement that goes on. Sometimes we forget what we really are pursuing the degree for.
Whether it's an MBA or other degrees. We almost lose ourselves ourselves in the middle of the chatter. I've found that people, if they would take time to reflect, again, then 20s are difficult to-- That's some of the most difficult times I think, to really understand yourself because you're finding yourself still in the 20s. I do think that if people had their confidence or had someone that can-- then what I try to do is instill confidence in decision-making, "Why don't you pursue this?"
"Well maybe it might not be as I feel that others might think is interesting." I'm like, "It doesn't matter so much. This is what you want to do. It's having people being able to put a stake in the ground or an anchor around, and understanding what careers are really great for them through intense and extensive exploration. Matt, and assessment, they're great assessments that are out there.
I think a lot of it is-- and it also depends upon the person. Matt, you know this about yourself. It's what are your interests? What are your abilities? What are your motivators? What are your values? What do you find purpose in? All of that is so important.
[00:09:43] Matt: It's the same stuff we help people with about their money all day, every day. It's all about values. We touched on values, but is there a way that you think about what makes work the right fit for someone?
[00:09:54] Mary: I've thought about that. I think by that question and if you have the luxury to actually sit back and think about that. I know there are times people are working several jobs and might not have the time at the moment to sit and reflect what the best opportunity for me is. When you think about fit it's like success has a different definition for people. There are many different definitions for success and even failure or perceived failure. Fit might be, do I get joy and energy around even thinking about pursuing this particular career?
Am I continually intellectually curious about what else might happen or how will I develop in this particular career? Do I find myself feeling on the opposite side, I guess, a bit. Now he's looking forward to going to work during the night. I think that there are a number of factors that we have to unpack around work and life and how does work fit in our life. If we might be a type of person that is quite happy to work 80-hour weeks and work things around that or not find that satisfactory because even though there might be financial gain, there might be other losses that go with that.
I think that it's the person being able to write down and analyze and understand what he or she finds important to them. Is it security with wealth? Is it stability? Is it prestige? Is it again financial gain? There's so many things that we can unpack. Frankly does this give me purpose to get up each day? What is the mission of the organization? Is this something I can buy into and do.
[00:11:38] Matt: I liked particularly what you said about something that gives you joy and energy. There were both some companies that I visited with during business school or it was clear when I got to the corporate presentation that it definitely would not give me joy and energy and I'm not sure it was giving the corporate presenters a lot of joy and energy either.
[00:11:54] Mary: You can see it.
[00:11:55] Matt: Yes, you can tell usually pretty quick. I won't name any names right now. Then other times in my own career where it was clear to me that whatever I was up to, I think we all have days that are easier and days that are harder at work and that's the nature of it. When it's week after week and month after month and year after year it's like-- and you only get one crack at life. You might as well do something that gives you that joy and energy.
I want to pivot a little bit from that career choice question to ask who should go to business school. This was another question that set me on my journey of being a blogger and advisor. I think it's wonderful for some people and I think that it's not wonderful for everyone.
[00:12:37] Mary: I agree. Again, I've been at Duke going on 19 years. I've had discussions with students who have grappled with that. I don't know why I'm here. Then you unpack that. So much as you know Matt spending time with clients it's the same thing you unpack. Where's the Genesis of this? Is it academically difficult and you may have gotten a bad grade before you came? What is making us under-confident? What is it making us question our decision? Is that, "Gosh I'm just a flat out a liberal arts person. I think I wanted a business school degree because somebody else told me I should get it."
Frankly even as we listen to people we love and who support us and their opinions are important but sometimes it's just not the right time. I do think business school is a wonderful opportunity for people to continue to challenge themselves perhaps in a different way than they had before. There are so many people I've had the opportunity to work with who come from Peace Corps, who come from non-profits. Who come from a variety of backgrounds that are not necessarily what you would think of as traditional corporate work but they are so excited about changing their careers.
A business school degree really is a career changer. I'd say around 95% of the folks that I work with have come to do that. It certainly is a way of doing it, a ticket of doing it. If you manage it the way it is fully--
[00:14:11] Matt: Yes, we could talk about that forever and we won't because we have a lot of other things I want to talk about, but I love that about business school, was the many backgrounds. Honestly, to me, what I noticed as the differentiator for success versus not was a plan to use the degree to do a specific thing. Like it could be many many different things, but having a plan going in was the difference between spinning out and really just getting it done and then enjoying the time a bit along the way.
[00:14:41] Mary: I Know, Matt, I couldn't agree more. Sometimes, I don't know if you found this to be the case, that you come in with your plan basically you're going to stay with what you wrote the essay. The nimbleness, the flexibility you give yourself because it's such an expiration process. You may have come in with your plan and you need to iterate that plan. You need to give yourself permission to open up the world, but having a plan, having some sort of a roadmap is very helpful. I think having someone help you do that it's very important like you do with your business and I do with mine.
[00:15:14] Matt: Like you do with students. That's right. I think I wrote down when you were talking earlier and it just didn't come back up at the time but it's like take time to reflect that's important then decide and then take action and then iterate. You can sit there and analyze forever not usually what productive people do.
[00:15:32] Mary: I want to say one more time just to give yourself permission to change your mind or to change your path. There are people that it's very overwhelming. I know for students and even for us in life there's so much happening and a lot of technology a lot of things to look at and a lot of other things in life going on. There are times when I've had students say, "No, I just want to do this," mostly because they were either fatigued or they were under-confident with their ability to execute well or it just seemed easier, and you know as I do, that is not the reason to stay in one boat.
[00:16:12] Matt: As we talked about who should go to business school, we've been reading some, as an MBA myself, interesting press about this national decrease in MBA applications. I was curious how you have seen that playing out for you either at Fuqua generally or maybe more specifically if at all in your career counseling work.
[00:16:31] Mary: I would say certainly we are also involved with some decrease in applications. A lot of that is coming from we have as you know, Matt, such a great wonderful diverse population at Fuqua. We used to have about 40% of our international students. Some of the decrease was around that which, again, our culture is such a team-oriented culture. Is one that part of that is learning from so many people from all the worlds.
That has been something we've noticed and are hoping that given there's so many other things at play there that make a difference. I would say with the-- certainly we are aware of that. The work I specifically do with the industry I focus on is quite a steady volume of students that are interested in that particular industry. My very specific individual work has been quite steady. I would say that just on a slighter side and I know we're talking about our MBA applications as a whole.
You know too, Matt, when universities have other MBA programs in addition to the full-time program, we have seen application increases in those other programs but specifically for the daytime when they were talking about that. Yes in my sphere of work which is management consulting, it has been quite steady.
[00:18:00] Matt: You're steady at 65 hours a week. No, I knew that there wasn't any lack of things to do. I think from my seat in the house I love the full-time MBA if you have what we talked about a minute ago which is that clear reason to go. Then I think it's probably only good that there is greater flexibility in the corporate career paths that everyone is having to ask and answer that question is this for me or not?
[00:18:28] Mary: Matt, you brought a good point up is that we have to have a plan after this career as you well know, it's the, "Is this a good career for me? And say it is or we have assessed it is. If the organizations that we're interested in also finds it a good match, then of course, we go through the interview process and hopefully get the offer and then go into the job. Then thinking beyond, my work a lot in Fuqua is not only the present but it is the future.
I have workshops that are certainly how to be successful in your full-time jobs in consulting. I have alarms that I bring in to talk about when they're ready to exit what does that look like? That opens up a whole another area, but I think that career planning it never stops really. You have to keep your head up with market changes and things that are happening. We have to look well beyond several steps down the road with them.
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[00:19:27] Matt: If you're enjoying the show please share it with your friends and family. If you've already left a rating or review thanks. If not, please rate and review the show wherever you listen to podcasts.
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I ask everybody that I'm able to bring on, what do you love today about where you are with your life work or money? I'm blessed to know a lot of successful people. You're one of them. I just wonder if you'd say something that you particularly enjoy about where your life's work has led you to this point.
[00:19:59] Mary: Matt, I was thinking about this. I am so blessed that I don't consider my career work. I don't think about working hours, which we do the meeting hours and staying at night and go into these presentations. I love what I do and my life outside of work, it's interesting as I say outside, because frankly you have your, your life, which includes your work and your family, which I'm so terribly blessed with a wonderful husband and a family, very supportive, very excited about what I do and certainly loves what he does and good health.
I mean, there's no complaints and we're very thankful to have the whole piece of life work and money as far as-- here's one thing I always smile about the money piece is, I'm in higher ed, and I love counseling my students that are going off to have wonderful financial game and enjoy when they come back and take me to lunch, you know, periodically because it's money obviously, well, it's important to be secure and stable. It was not necessarily one of my drivers because the counseling coaching field is one thing it's a lot, it's different.
[00:21:15] Matt: It's different than management consulting in terms of pay grade?
[00:21:17] Mary: It is, and that of course from a value perspective, and was quite-- would never look back.
[00:21:25] Matt: I'm going to catch you up there for just a minute and say, from my seat in the house, having worked with people across many different industries I work with, or have known many high-income people who have accumulated relatively less than they would like and then also there are honestly, educators I'd have to go back and look. Educators are, I think they're in the top three groups from an accumulation standpoint. Wherever that may put them, so it's like engineers, educators, and I'm struggling to even think what the third one may be.
They save high percentages of their incomes and that tends to work out well over time. So, it's also, for example, in your particular field, you're in a culture of educators that doesn't require conspicuous spending in certain ways in order to look like your neighbors and things like this are really helpful.
[00:22:20] Mary: Matt, that's an excellent point and quite frankly, it is and yes, you're right. Jeff and I have-- my husband and I have definitely thought that way too. When we think about our home and our financial portfolio and package, it is one of great thought and intent. We're quite intentional, where we enjoy a comfortable living space and we do things within our means and really thoroughly have a happy life without necessarily having fallen into the trappings of other things.
[00:22:57] Matt: [laughs] Good stuff, Mary Beck. I look at you, it looks to me like you're doing pretty much exactly what you want and I wonder if there's anything that if someone didn't know you closely would surprise them, that is a challenge or difficulty about your life as it exists right now.
[00:23:12] Mary: One thing I have to say that might surprise me is that I didn't plan on being in it, being in this role for going on 19 years. I too, as a career person always reflect and take time out for and assess where I am in my happiness, in my continue to bring value and my meeting the purpose of my life. It has maintained certainly the same steady, wonderful time at Duke and at Fuqua that I'm still there.
I never go into roles and never have gone into a role of putting a clock on it, because I don't think you really give your full self when you do that, Matt. It's year after year, again, I make an assessment usually at the end of end of the school year and these days it's more like, "Yes I'm still loving it and it's easy, so it's not necessarily a full-blown spreadsheet with anything."
The thing that's so wonderful about it is for the daytime class, I feel such a sense of loyalty to them too, that as you know, it's the two-year rotation. If you were a first-year, I can't imagine. I feel like if I leave and it's not all about me by any stretch, but it is I'd want to be able to continue to be able to coach and help the next year. It's been this cycle of wonder, Matt, that I have been able to, frankly, stick around and be there with students.
Also having the great opportunity as you remember, Matt, when you graduate, there's a whole new influx of people and different ways of people think about things and pursuit. I've learned from students as much as I hope they've learned from me and it's just been a great journey and continues to be.
[00:24:59] Matt: For the sake of all your students from New York to Shanghai, I hope that you have many more years left there. It's only helping them as they do what they do. One of the things that you've talked about in other kind of media stuff that you've done is just your love for the outdoors. Admitting that every time I've seen you, you've been in your office and here we are today in mine but you entered you're working lifetime as a lifeguard, and you've talked about your enthusiasm for running. How have you fit your love of the outdoor life with an indoor career?
[00:25:33] Mary: The lifeguard thing is a funny one. I was obviously that when I was a teenager and it's important for me to get out and as you know this, Matt, what I do is try to bake it in on the back end of the day, but what I've done lately, and I'm trying to incorporate this is have walking appointments. I'm really going to try to instill that this next fall, because I think it's important for both the students and myself, certainly, for us to get up and moving, but there's a lot of stress these days, all of us are affected by it.
It's just good to get moving and being out in the air and even if it's rainy and cold, we can do laps within Fuqua. There are ways to mitigate it or go to the JP. There are all sorts of ways to get our circulation going and have these talks when we're standing and walking. One of the things I do though is make time to being in running groups at night, whether I joined that and go or go to the gym, me and my husband, I do that or definitely make time every day to get outside.
Because nature, as I said earlier, is so important to me and certainly where I grew up and it's very important. When I was younger, I would walk the land with my father where he grew up and I get so rejuvenated by it and again, energized by it, and you can just breathe a bit. I do think it's ironic that most of the time when you and I see each other is sitting in an office, so the next time you come over we need to walk.
[00:26:58] Matt: Maybe we'll debrief from our interview with a quick walk around. Although I can't tell, it might be raining out there right now. Again, you've talked about this elsewhere, and even in our little conversation today, how did your upbringing in the South, in a small town, how did that shape you as a person?
[00:27:14] Mary: Well, again, I wouldn't trade it for anything, Matt. It was really idyllic and I reflect on it. It was a very small town, one flashing light. Our community knew one another. My faith is very important to me, so church was important and my family quite important. I was lucky to have relatives in the-- my babysitters, if I can use that, would be my grandmother, my great aunt when I got home on the bus and my brother and I would go there.
It’s just this-- it was very comfortable and safe and a great place to grow up and to recognize that a lot of folks don't have that opportunity, but it's such a good one. It also, when you're in a small town, there is that sense of community and there's a sense of simplicity too if I might add that. We certainly had lots of wonderful things we wanted to do, but it's not like living in a big-- an urban area where you might be running around a lot, not with each other, but it's a sense of the things that my parents valued a lot were books were everywhere and education was very important, and visiting people in nursing homes like I love going--
I'm probably the only person that loved going to the nursing home. It's just doing these things for others and learning how to help people. That's the root of where I learned how to-- I learned it from all of my family members that I grew up just being a helping person, I want to make somebody's life easier. Also, I tell you, when you present in church a lot, when you're really young, you feel more comfortable as you grow older so there are all these lessons I learned there.
There's a certain sense again, in the South too, I was surrounded by many wonderful, very strong women and the Steel Magnolia piece that comes out and the grittiness that might come out and grace with the gritty. I could go on and on and I, but I wouldn't trade it for anything and I felt that so much of my, part of my foundation of who I've become.
[00:29:03] Matt: That sense of simplicity, I think is also a really key thing. It maybe arises more organically in this sort of idyllic setting that you're describing. Back to something we were talking about a few minutes ago at Fuqua, one of the challenges that kids get into as they think about their career choices is like, well, there's actually 10,000 good choices you can make, which becomes quickly overwhelming and that's where this ability to create simplicity out of complexity.
That's one of the best skills that anyone can have. So, if it's not a rising organically, you can create it. Some of my own career journey has been about creating that for our family and I'm all about it, even though I've done that in urban environments and through complex lifestyle choices. It's still trying to get back to making it simple. It's not easy, but simple is good.
[00:30:01] Mary: It is good and you develop [laughs] the skill to be able to do it and I tell students that you have a buffet in front of you, there are multiple brands and cheeses and desserts, and you're tackling just this room of wonderful options and then when I think simplicity too, growing up, it was like, but I was so happy picking daffodils and kicking the can up and down the road and playing with fireflies.
It's like looking at options, is the optionality that can throw us, they could be so great isn't it, but our ability to be able to then hone in on why my plate could be full of these things that I select, I know why I think this is good for me and simplify the choices. That is a skill that can be developed actually, [laughs] but it makes life easier.
[00:30:51] Matt: In whatever environment, I can still end up with pulled pork, banana pudding, and collards, and that's going to be just fine.
[00:30:59] Mary: I love it, that's exactly right. That's exactly right.
[00:31:03] Matt: I wanted to ask what's the most helpful advice you've ever received or some helpful advice you've received at some point or another?
[00:31:10] Mary: Boy, I think about my parents right away, they both instilled a real strong work ethic, punctuality was key, my father was a principal and educator like I said, coach, he was in the Pacific in World War II, he's a very gentle person. He was a Marine in World War II, and very gentle and the one thing I always hate to do is disappoint daddy because there's certain things that he, and he was not loud and demanding and anything like that.
He'd say working hard is very important, being on time is very important, we're spending other people's time, whether I was playing basketball and I was running laps with a team, it was we're going to stay together as a team. Daddy felt very strongly about that too. The hard work, the resilience that was built with their mother, I told you about the Steel Magnolia and all these strong women.
One thing about it I think it's so important for young women to hear too is that great quote from Eleanor Roosevelt, no one makes you feel inferior without your consent. Mother was very much one of self-esteem, and support, and confidence, and she wanted to raise a really strong person. Of course, with my brother as well, I have one sibling, but mother also said, Beck-- she would chat with me about choices and decisions, and I was such a child as you know that would run around and be so interested in so many things, which was great, that she also knew that there are times I just needed to learn.
I would job shadow people, I would try things in careers and I told mother, I said, "If it don't work, it just doesn't work I need to try it." They needed to give me some room, so it's hard work, resilience, it's listening to myself, I don't know, it's that whole great generation thing. I was just raised by a lot of great people, honestly, Matt. As far as very specific words of advice, I probably gave them to you earlier, but it's treat others exactly like you want to be treated. Be very respectful of people, being understanding and patient, and also bring your best self and there are times when we don't do that all the time but at least you made an effort.
Ask for grace, like, I'm sorry if I may have come across-- sometimes our tone is not something we want, you might say I'm so sorry, please apologize today if I can-- and also being able to own up to your own actions and take ownership for things.
[00:33:35] Matt: If someone specifically wanted to learn more about what you do, working as a career coach for MBAs in the business school context, what should they do? How would someone set that up?
[00:33:44] Mary: What I would recommend for sure is doing like I did for a lot of my careers. The things I was curious about is set up a piece of informational awareness. I think I might want to be in higher ed as a career coach, but what would that look like? Well, I would really encourage the person to find someone in that role, set up an informational, email them to say, "I'm so-and-so, I'd really love to learn a little bit more about what you do."
Also though, going into it, understand why you're curious about it because it's one thing to ask people, almost like a passive while you're asking somebody a lot of questions, but you need to have an engaging conversation with the individual. Because when I've had folks that have asked me things of this nature, I'm like, "Tell me a little bit about the root of your interest, where does this come from or use?" I'll ask them as many questions as there are. Hopefully having a little understanding about where that comes from is important.
I think you really also, and this is part of why you might be interested in it or why you need to have an interest in careers, you need to have an intellectual curiosity and what types of careers is it going to be? There's many types of career counseling, would it be ones around in the business realm, ones with engineering, it could be one with liberal arts, but at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter because the end of the day, I think a good career counselor is one that can listen to people and let them be where they are at that moment.
Use good to intuition and ask the questions that get to help them sort things, you have to care about people, Matt. You have to like people and you have to be really curious about a human being if you really want to be a good counselor. So, regardless of what types of maybe careers you're counseling, and you really have to do is like people and care about them.
[00:35:23] Matt: I could sit here and talk about informational meetings for hours and hours and maybe sometime I'll do a whole podcast on that because this is such an important tool and I'm constantly surprised when I speak with folks, are you familiar with informational interviewing and people say, "No what's that?" I'll send a couple of articles, but it's just the most potent tool for getting to know yourself for getting to know-- that's not the first reason.
The first reason is to get to know other people but through that process, you get to learn some things about yourself and it also gives caring people an easy thing to say yes to, I think it's one of the most underutilized, super valuable things that anyone can do.
[00:36:05] Mary: Matt, I can't agree more and you hit on something, you learn a lot about yourself during the process and when I don't want to imply, Matt, is that you have to be fully baked to go into it, because like we said, the whole point of informational is trying to piece together a puzzle of what you're curious about, and when you get off the phone or lunch with the person, you've walked away with hopefully some kernels of wisdom.
I wouldn't go in there and you can kind of end it by this, it's with a goal at the end of that hour-long lunch or a 30-minute call, what do I hope to take away from it? You're right, it's a critical, critical tool.
[00:36:45] Matt: The theme of this show continues to be learning from the experience of others. I'm curious, one of the great ways to learn from others is to pick up a book. What are you reading right now? Or what have you read in the past that has been important to you as a reader?
[00:36:58] Mary: I do tend to read, well, I love fiction. I love things around espionage [laughs] so there's my nonfiction, I'll get to it in a moment, but love things around that whole espionage mystery themes, I've got some authors that I tend to go-- I love Alexander McCall Smith when he writes around about the The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency series set in Botswana.
I like a lot of the Sue Grafton and the Robert Parker and the Daniel Silver, all these wonderful mysteries, I could actually go through a lot of them, but on the flip side of it, my parents, do tend to look at the books about Churchhill or Roosevelt because I actually enjoyed the movie 1917, which was fantastic. I tend to drift in the direction because we learned so much from our past, and so I tend to watch documentaries and look at things of that nature, but I do enjoy.
I like laughing too, so I like some of the mysteries I named. There's definitely the mystery inside and you're trying to figure out the who done it, but the way it's written it's just funny, so you can get a little bit of a blend of laughter. It tends to be definitely some very meaningful books, particularly the one set in Botswana while it just examines the life of people and particular wonderful protagonist, the way she describes her family and her love for that area and her work is something I know I'm drawn to it because of that.
If you're not as familiar with that, that's a wonderful novel around that, No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency.
[00:38:34] Matt: Thanks for teeing that up for us, I love reading fiction and non-fiction and read both at different times and I love to hear what other people are interested in. I had fun getting ready for our interview today and reading some other stuff that you'd done and I knew from one of those conversations that you had sponsored a student or a child in Africa, I know that you have graduated and are sponsoring someone new right now, so I was curious if you could share about that.
[00:39:01] Mary: I am and his name is Samuel. Jeff and I were sponsoring Samuel, our other lovely young fellow, a little bit older now so he's aged out. One of the things that we have enjoyed, we get these letters from him, from a person who helps him write, and he's eight years old and we know some of the things he really loves, which is the springtime in Rwanda.
Part of being able to get to know him is to being a sponsor, he's able to use some of our funds, he bought some pigs recently, which is very important. He's very excited about the pigs. What's so interesting about that is that I actually looked in, you can visit your sponsor child. I looked to try to do that, a lot of things going on right now in the world, so I do want us to do that. I think it's important if I could I go to that village and meet him one day and I'd love to do that, so that's on the bucket list.
[00:39:57] Matt: I hope you get to do that, we had some missionaries from our church who were presenting on our Uganda mission and it was a fun presentation. They had done a week-long VBS sort of camp as they might be at camps. These teams were competing in various contests and I got some good cultural appreciation of the importance of livestock there.
They have these teams look just like kids at camp might look here in the US and they're playing various games. Then there was a team that was the winner. There was a picture of the winning team and the prize for the winning team was a goat. The winning team is shown with their goat. Then, in the next picture, I'm a hunter. The goat is flayed and butchered. The kids, the older kids in the group are leading a butchering event with the goat. The next picture of the kids are eating the goat.
[00:40:47] Mary: Well, full cycle.
[00:40:48] Matt: Full cycle. We might introduce this at our VBS next summer.
[00:40:52] Mary: That is so-- this live cycle exactly, of the beast.
[00:40:58] Matt: I think any VBS that gives out a goat as a prize is a winner. We've talked about a lot of different stuff and I just wanted to wrap up giving you the chance to make any concluding comments that you have or anything that I've forgotten to ask you about.
[00:41:13] Mary: Well, first of all, and I'm so honored to be here, Matt. Thanks so much of you, and it's real privilege that you even thought about me. It's such a privilege again to sit across from you today. I really from an earnestness here is if people can have an opportunity to think about what they want to do in life or change careers and have the option to reflect upon that and really make that journey. I encourage you to do it because we spend so much of our time working.
If your work cannot feel like it, which many of times, we don't necessarily have the luxury of that happening, think about it, seek people out to help in that regard. Because life is short and you want to enjoy your time with your family and the way you spend it. If you can control it as much as possible in a way that's satisfactory, I would encourage people to do that. It's been a real joy to me.
[00:42:04] Matt: I know that your words are not only in conclusion but throughout our conversation are helpful to people doing just that. Thanks so much, Mary Beck.
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[00:42:11] Mary: Thank you, Matt.
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[00:42:16] Matt: Three big themes shine through in my conversation with Mary Beck. The first is a bit of a paradox. If you want work, that doesn't feel like work you have to work very hard and B likes to jump in and see what it's like. She describes her own varied path interning in the state legislature, and then advocating for women pursuing higher education, working on agricultural policy, and now helping MBA students and alumni figure out what they want to do with their lives.
Second, while options are valuable, they can be overwhelming. The ability to create simplicity out of complexity is a skill that can be cultivated. It's valuable in our personal lives and to employers too. Third, Mary Beck sees other simple, but not easy axioms as the best advice she ever received, work hard and be resilient, she says. Treat others the way you want to be treated. Show up on time as your best self. When you fail, ask for forgiveness, offer grace to others, be respectful.
Man, if we all followed her advice, what a wonderful world it would be. Finally, during our conversation, Mary Beck mentions resources that she finds helpful for students looking to understand their strengths and interests and how those can map to a career. I missed the chance to follow up on this line of thought in our conversation. I spoke to Mary Beck after the fact and her recommended resources, our career leader, a book called Getting Unstuck by Timothy Butler and StrengthsFinder 2.0 from Gallup.
[00:44:18] Female Speaker: Matt Miner is a fee-only, fiduciary financial advisor and Founder & CEO of Miner Wealth Management, a North Carolina Registered Investment Advisor where Matt provides personalized, unconflicted, advice to clients for a fee. He’s also my dad, so please be nice when you talk to him! Matt is a Certified Financial Planner Professional and holds a Series 65 securities license. He earned his bachelor’s degree in Finance from Arizona State University, and his MBA from Duke University’s Fuqua School of Business.
Work Pants Finance is Matt's financial media business where he talks about work, entrepreneurship, kids and money, taxes, investing, and other personal finance topics. WorkPantsFinance.com exists to share wisdom and provide general financial information. It is not financial, tax, or legal advice. You are an individual and probably need personal advice for your specific situation. You should consider building relationships with helpful, caring, and competent professionals who understand your unique context and can provide advice that is tailored to your needs
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